In Chapter 5 of the Tao Te Ching, Laozi taught that
Heaven and Earth are not humane and treat all things as straw dogs. In line with that the sage is also not humane treating people as straw dogs.
While many scholars try hard to discern what he meant by those words, his following explanation on the reason why escaped most mainly because scholars are not necessarily neidan practitioners:
The space between Heaven and Earth seems to be like a bellows. It is empty and yet inexhaustible. When active it produces more.
No amount of words can fathom it. It is better to keep to the Center.
In a recent thread in Taobums, there was discussion on Water and/or Fire methods taught by three teachers in the West. I wade in to mention that Confucius taught about the importance of Names. Neither Laozi nor the Buddha taught any water and/or fire methods. In the Yi the only method taught is that of Keeping Still.
Kan (water) and Li (fire) are subjects too deep even for neidan masters let alone students unless they have in depth knowledge about Qian and Kun, Kan and Li in the Book of Changes.
My question put to members (and to readers of this blog), since according to Zhong Liquan and Zhang Boduan, there is where the real work (fire) starts, was:
How many experienced neidan practitioners have you come across that know the exact location of the space between Heaven and Earth?
Since there were no answers even from students of the three teachers in the forum, I hope some readers here can answer my question.
If only few know the space between Heaven and Earth and keep quiet, how can scholars ever discern what Laozi meant in this chapter 5?
Exactly what Laozi taught in Chapter 1, that the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao? Simple and easy that!
If you still do not understand why Heaven and Earth and the sage are not humane and treat myriad things and people as straw dogs respectively, I cannot help you anymore than that.
Cheerio!
17 comments:
Greetings Allan,
It seems to me (wu) is what separates things and usefulness might be born there.
in peace,
gar
Hi Allan,
“My question put to members (and to readers of this blog), since according to Zhong Liquan and Zhang Boduan, there is where the real work (fire) starts, was:
How many experienced neidan practitioners have you come across that know the exact location of the space between Heaven and Earth?”
That brings back a memory of comment made by a meditation instructor from northern Thai forest tradition. The meditation student was reporting he had seen from above the moon and the sun shining. The teacher looked rather unimpressed and sighed back that given there is no proper space nor no proper time to speak of, how could one be indulging in such moments?
I’ve put your question to a neidan practitioner I know and he commented casually: “Neither in, neither out.” I believe that in his neidan practice he very much goes by what you said earlier in your post: “In the Yi the only method taught is that of Keeping Still.”
Regards,
Nathalie
gar,
Over the past five years or so, Daoists in the West have placed too much importance over the Wu and You phenomena in their studies.
While I know how this came about, and why Wang Bi had also supported the Wu theory, neidan practice or the cultivation of Tao goes way beyond that concept.
Perhaps two questions you need to ask yourself:
Can one really rely on a book which is written and propounded by someone with declared minimal or no knowledge about Tao cultivation?
Was Wang Bi really knowledgeable about neidan practice and the Tao?
Nathalie,
While the Buddhist meditation teacher was correct to tell the student off for imagining things, we learn from the Yi about time and space. Otherwise how can a Yi student learn how to master fate?
The next time, you ask your friend about neidan practice; tell him upfront, not to hedge.
It is not a shame to say we don’t know when so many down the ages don’t actually know. That is why the Zhen Ren like Zhong LiQuan and Zhang Boduan had written to teach their students (and others) about the space between Heaven and Earth.
Greetings Allan,
Thank you for your response.
So far as relying on a book for ideas, perhaps what is absorbed while quietly walking in the forest will enhance this existence.
in peace,
gar
Hi Allan,
Yi/understanding patterns of qi flow through time: this is correct; meanwhile quite a few meditation masters would not be supportive to fortunetelling or fate divination.
Neidan/heaven: I didn't provide context information to him when I put the question. I will next time if the opportunity arises. In this case, humility is not at stake, as he confesses being rather illiterate.
Kan/li in your former post: reminded me of a translation done by Eva Wong of a book called Dragron and tiger treaty, inserted into Cheng tung book during Sung dynasty, published by Wang Tao and Chou Chen-i. Not being a neidan student myself I have no clue whether this is an appropriate reference.
Nathalie
Nathalie,
Not all meditation masters know what they are talking about. Some say there are no classics or sutras. Some call the Yi superstition.
Sooner or later, you may realize that they are not learned nor can they read and understand the profound Yi and the other classics.
If you want to understand Kan and Li more, I suggest that you study the two hexagrams in greater detail.
Hi Allan,
Jumped into your blog by accident. Some thoughts like to share with you:
1. The gist of Neiden is creation of high-energy chi-ball by guiding chi (generated around the perineum) through the microcosmic. After chi runs through (and compressed/energized in the process, a physical event by the way) the spinal cord, it is like "swallowing" to guide/force the compressed/energized chi along the Ren to the lower dan tian to be dissolved/absorbed there. This is of course the beginning.
2. Nei-gung in martial art is a bit different, where chi (generated in many places) is guided to flow broadly throughout the body, in particular to areas essential to martial art practice.
3. For spiritual enlightenment, one needs concentrated energy (to stimulate part of the brain) generated by neiden.
4. Health benefit (both physical and mental) is beneficial side-effect of both neiden and nei-gung.
5. On your quote from Tao Te Ching, it is about the concept of Tao (or Buddha for that matter) being beyond good and evil, or embracing good and evil (and it is the objective of a Neiden practitioner to ultimately experience THAT). In Jungian terminology, it is one's self observing one's ego. It is quite different from modern day Christianity with a loving God.
Cheers,
Paul
Good try, Paul.
If you want to practise neidan and cultivate Tao, I suggest you find a neidan adept or a real teacher to correct your thoughts.
Regards,
Do you consider you one adept or real teacher? If yes, can you enlighten me?
As the saying goes, I have better things to do than correct someone else’s thoughts on neidan and the cultivation of Tao.
Ha, Ha, Ha, Allan, you're kind of funny. Didn't you write as your objective, "By writing in this blog he hopes to share some experiences with fellow travelers in the far journey"? As a guest here, I'm only playing by the rule of your game.
With due respect, I shall excuse myself from this discussion for good.
Anyway, you made my day...:):)
Fellow travelers on the path to Tao know what experiences have been shared in the blog over the past five years.
These sharing would not be obvious to those who are not travelers, even if they like to consider themselves one. So there you go. Bye.
...there you go again LOL
Travelers come and travelers go.
Some travel without moving.
There is nothing to learn.
That is why it is so difficult to learn it.
The crow comes and the cock crows
Taoist Yogist would only start orbiting when IT salutes to it all
No need to crawl if you find it too raw
The "sage" would prefer sitting like a piece of cold rock instead of somersault....
My dear host, you might find this conversation of mine with Mr. Crow interesting... (http://taoteachings.blogspot.com/2010/10/learning-nineteen.html#comments)
PS: "Taoists beware"!
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